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WATYF
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:32 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

What say you?


WATYF
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p-dawg
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:47 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

In that particular quote, Messiah is referred to as "the end of the law", but it doesn't mean "the destruction of the law" but rather is the "end" as in the object - the end result. He's the end of the law in this light:

End:
c (1) : the ultimate state (2) : result, issue

We can see that he didn't destroy the law because he followed it himself. He practiced the 10 commandments and expected his disciples to do likewise - and he rebuked them whenever they failed at it. He also stated plainly: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." and "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." This points to the definition used above rather than the traditional definition of end (unless it's your contention that heaven and earth have passed away). If you can point out an error I've made, I will be appreciative, but I am reasonably certain that my analysis is correct.
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WATYF
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Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 103
Location: Smiling back at you...

PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:52 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Before we waste any time arguing positions that the other doesn't actually hold, I should ask this...

How is man saved?


WATYF
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WATYF
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Joined: 07 Jun 2004
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Location: Smiling back at you...

PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:54 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

p-dawg wrote:
In that particular quote, Messiah is referred to as "the end of the law", but it doesn't mean "the destruction of the law" but rather is the "end" as in the object - the end result. He's the end of the law in this light:

End:
c (1) : the ultimate state (2) : result, issue

We can see that he didn't destroy the law because he followed it himself. He practiced the 10 commandments and expected his disciples to do likewise - and he rebuked them whenever they failed at it. He also stated plainly: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." and "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." This points to the definition used above rather than the traditional definition of end (unless it's your contention that heaven and earth have passed away). If you can point out an error I've made, I will be appreciative, but I am reasonably certain that my analysis is correct.

I didn't imply "destruction" any more than Paul did when he wrote Romans. The completion or fulfillment is a more accurate description.

WATYF
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p-dawg
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Joined: 23 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 4:00 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

WATYF wrote:
Before we waste any time arguing positions that the other doesn't actually hold, I should ask this...

How is man saved?


WATYF


Well, if we're going back to basics, maybe we should start here: What does it mean to be "saved?"
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p-dawg
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 4:02 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

WATYF wrote:
p-dawg wrote:
In that particular quote, Messiah is referred to as "the end of the law", but it doesn't mean "the destruction of the law" but rather is the "end" as in the object - the end result. He's the end of the law in this light:

End:
c (1) : the ultimate state (2) : result, issue

We can see that he didn't destroy the law because he followed it himself. He practiced the 10 commandments and expected his disciples to do likewise - and he rebuked them whenever they failed at it. He also stated plainly: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." and "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." This points to the definition used above rather than the traditional definition of end (unless it's your contention that heaven and earth have passed away). If you can point out an error I've made, I will be appreciative, but I am reasonably certain that my analysis is correct.

I didn't imply "destruction" any more than Paul did when he wrote Romans. The completion or fulfillment is a more accurate description.

WATYF


If you mean "fulfilled" then that is essentially the same thing as "destroyed". If you mean "fulfillment", that is a different animal, since it implies that it has not happened yet (or has not finished happening yet, more precisely), which is my position.
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WATYF
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Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 103
Location: Smiling back at you...

PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 4:22 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

p-dawg wrote:
WATYF wrote:
Before we waste any time arguing positions that the other doesn't actually hold, I should ask this...

How is man saved?


WATYF


Well, if we're going back to basics, maybe we should start here: What does it mean to be "saved?"


Be reconciled to the Father so they will be accepted into His presence after death.


WATYF
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WATYF
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Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 103
Location: Smiling back at you...

PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 4:26 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

p-dawg wrote:
WATYF wrote:
p-dawg wrote:
In that particular quote, Messiah is referred to as "the end of the law", but it doesn't mean "the destruction of the law" but rather is the "end" as in the object - the end result. He's the end of the law in this light:

End:
c (1) : the ultimate state (2) : result, issue

We can see that he didn't destroy the law because he followed it himself. He practiced the 10 commandments and expected his disciples to do likewise - and he rebuked them whenever they failed at it. He also stated plainly: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." and "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." This points to the definition used above rather than the traditional definition of end (unless it's your contention that heaven and earth have passed away). If you can point out an error I've made, I will be appreciative, but I am reasonably certain that my analysis is correct.

I didn't imply "destruction" any more than Paul did when he wrote Romans. The completion or fulfillment is a more accurate description.

WATYF


If you mean "fulfilled" then that is essentially the same thing as "destroyed". If you mean "fulfillment", that is a different animal, since it implies that it has not happened yet (or has not finished happening yet, more precisely), which is my position.


So when Christ uttered "It is finished", He really meant, "It's almost finished... just a few more things to do"? Big Smile

WATYF
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p-dawg
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Joined: 23 Nov 2010
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 5:04 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

WATYF wrote:
p-dawg wrote:
WATYF wrote:
p-dawg wrote:
In that particular quote, Messiah is referred to as "the end of the law", but it doesn't mean "the destruction of the law" but rather is the "end" as in the object - the end result. He's the end of the law in this light:

End:
c (1) : the ultimate state (2) : result, issue

We can see that he didn't destroy the law because he followed it himself. He practiced the 10 commandments and expected his disciples to do likewise - and he rebuked them whenever they failed at it. He also stated plainly: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." and "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." This points to the definition used above rather than the traditional definition of end (unless it's your contention that heaven and earth have passed away). If you can point out an error I've made, I will be appreciative, but I am reasonably certain that my analysis is correct.

I didn't imply "destruction" any more than Paul did when he wrote Romans. The completion or fulfillment is a more accurate description.

WATYF


If you mean "fulfilled" then that is essentially the same thing as "destroyed". If you mean "fulfillment", that is a different animal, since it implies that it has not happened yet (or has not finished happening yet, more precisely), which is my position.


So when Christ uttered "It is finished", He really meant, "It's almost finished... just a few more things to do"? Big Smile

WATYF


What was "it"? Everything? Or just one phase?

Smile

Remember that although the law will not pass away until ALL be fulfilled, there are other things that will happen first that will be fulfilled.
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p-dawg
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 5:09 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

WATYF wrote:
p-dawg wrote:
WATYF wrote:
Before we waste any time arguing positions that the other doesn't actually hold, I should ask this...

How is man saved?


WATYF


Well, if we're going back to basics, maybe we should start here: What does it mean to be "saved?"


Be reconciled to the Father so they will be accepted into His presence after death.


WATYF


I'm not sure about that part - the accepted into His presence part. (I'm not arguing against it - I am in total ignorance) To me, it means "being resurrected into the Kingdom (or government) of Heaven here on Earth". Whether the Creator will regularly commune with me at that point, I don't know. But basically, from what I understand, "life" is holding a civil service position in the coming new government. "Name written in the city walls", "will be judges and priests" etc.
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WATYF
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Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 103
Location: Smiling back at you...

PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 6:10 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

p-dawg wrote:
WATYF wrote:
p-dawg wrote:
WATYF wrote:
p-dawg wrote:
In that particular quote, Messiah is referred to as "the end of the law", but it doesn't mean "the destruction of the law" but rather is the "end" as in the object - the end result. He's the end of the law in this light:

End:
c (1) : the ultimate state (2) : result, issue

We can see that he didn't destroy the law because he followed it himself. He practiced the 10 commandments and expected his disciples to do likewise - and he rebuked them whenever they failed at it. He also stated plainly: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." and "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." This points to the definition used above rather than the traditional definition of end (unless it's your contention that heaven and earth have passed away). If you can point out an error I've made, I will be appreciative, but I am reasonably certain that my analysis is correct.

I didn't imply "destruction" any more than Paul did when he wrote Romans. The completion or fulfillment is a more accurate description.

WATYF


If you mean "fulfilled" then that is essentially the same thing as "destroyed". If you mean "fulfillment", that is a different animal, since it implies that it has not happened yet (or has not finished happening yet, more precisely), which is my position.


So when Christ uttered "It is finished", He really meant, "It's almost finished... just a few more things to do"? Big Smile

WATYF


What was "it"? Everything? Or just one phase?

Smile

Remember that although the law will not pass away until ALL be fulfilled, there are other things that will happen first that will be fulfilled.


Again, you'll have to clarify what you mean by "will not pass away".

WATYF
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WATYF
Benevolent Administrator


Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 103
Location: Smiling back at you...

PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 6:12 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

p-dawg wrote:
WATYF wrote:
p-dawg wrote:
WATYF wrote:
Before we waste any time arguing positions that the other doesn't actually hold, I should ask this...

How is man saved?


WATYF


Well, if we're going back to basics, maybe we should start here: What does it mean to be "saved?"


Be reconciled to the Father so they will be accepted into His presence after death.


WATYF


I'm not sure about that part - the accepted into His presence part. (I'm not arguing against it - I am in total ignorance) To me, it means "being resurrected into the Kingdom (or government) of Heaven here on Earth". Whether the Creator will regularly commune with me at that point, I don't know. But basically, from what I understand, "life" is holding a civil service position in the coming new government. "Name written in the city walls", "will be judges and priests" etc.


Alright, this isn't going to get us anywhere. How about we try another approach.

What do you think is accomplished by obeying the law?

WATYF
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